Wolf pack quandary

[sidian]

Okay so I've been gone for a long time, admittedly, and am out of the loop. Real life hit me upside the head, and I just got distracted and went through a "I don't feel like doing anything that takes brainpower online" phase.
I'm back now, and getting back in the swing, or at least trying to, and I find myself facing some rules that I either missed somehow, or simply don't remember (which is entirely possible. I have a notoriously horrible memory).
Firstly, the "Alpha can only be an alpha for 2 OOC years" rule is new to me. I was aware of the "You can't have two of your characters subsequently lead a pack" rule. i.e. I couldn't have Silver's daughter Sierra take over after Silver, because they are both my characters. I understand that....but FORCING an alpha to step down because, OOCly, it's been two years...I don't understand that. What if there isn't someone to take over? What, ICly, makes both pack alphas suddenly decide "Well sir...I best be mosyin' along." I mean, I knew Silver would not be alpha FOREVER, nor did I expect it, but I come back and I'm told 'You have to step down in November." I was caught totally off guard. OOC rules with no IC foundation are something I have a very hard time wrapping my mind around. I understand the intention is to let other people have a chance at playing Alpha, but shouldn't that happen through RP? If someone else wants to be alpha, shouldn't they make a play for it ICly? Alphas don't just say "K bye! Have fun!" and leave. I mean, I guess they could die, but what if we don't want to kill of our characters? What if no one WANTS to take over RIGHT THEN? And I know Viridian hasn't been around as long as Lazuli, yet, both alphas are being made to step down at the same time? Lazuli's had a longer run.
I'd like to make it clear that this is NOT me going "waah I don't wanna step down!" I don't have a problem with that, though I haven't figured out what I'll do with Silver after that...It's more the IC reasoning for it that has me perplexed.
Secondly, Silver let Cotton have pups this year, as in just born yesterday...Perhaps to start training her to take over as alpha eventually, perhaps because she loves her daughter and wanted to make her happy. When this arrangement was made, I had also planned on having Silver have like...one pup, potentially as a prelude to her getting older. When I mentioned this to Curiosity, I was told "No, you aren't allowed to have any pups anymore ever." This was a TOTAL surprise to me. I don't remember being told that two litters was it. I don't remember being told that the alphas weren't allowed to have pups this mating season. And if so, why? Did Lazuli have any pups this season? Even if they have to step down in November, that's NEXT IC mating season, why couldn't they have any THIS season?
I guess I just feel like I missed the boat somewhere, and am trying to figure out what's going on, and how other people feel about these rules.
I'm not trying to start trouble or bitch about realism, I just feel totally surprised. Did these rules come up in my absence? Is this new? Are there any other rules like this I should be made aware of?

[Cael]

These changes have come about over the last half year or so, and admittedly, myself, I'm not too thrilled with some of them, either. I will not speak for Curiosity but my understanding of having the alphas of both packs step down is this: One reason is because, yes, it will give other players a chance for RP. This is not to say that the current alphas will just up and leave. TP ideas are current in the process in order to generate RP for the process to begin and initiate the changing of the guard. I have been formulating something with the Lazuli for some time that was supposed to take place at the end of the last winter season. Unfortunately that did not happen, so, we're working on something else at the moment. As far as pup go, no, the Lazuli did not have a third litter.

Taking a step back for a moment, remember that we have a faster timeline than real life. Our characters are aging twice as fast as they would in real time. Felstride was a middle-aged adult, a few years out of adolescence when I created him, and after two real-life years (four IC years) he's a fairly old wolf. Not that he wouldn't be able to hold on to a pack or produce litters, but it would be exponentially harder. So, remember to always take that into perspective that our characters really aren't spring chickens anymore.

I believe the litter restriction was something to do with the wolf population and making sure it didn't go out of control and that the people with wolves didn't have a monopoly on the player base, but that is a question for someone else to clarify. I do not know the specifics.

It also has to do with the formation of Larkspur's and Haze's pack, as well. Spreading the populace and, as said before, giving other people a chance to play the leadder and help the MUCK branch out. It's all part of progression and what would be best for everyone as a whole. Myself, I wish I could be alpha for longer, but that's what has been discussed, and reviewed, and hashed out by the staff. Believe me, I put up my arguments. I'm sure Curiosity will attest to that. Again, like I've said, these are all things that are constantly being discussed and considered by the staff in order to benefit all players equally and to keep Meadows alive and well. Curiosity has worked very hard to keep us up and a float, at great expense to herself, and she can't make everyone happy. I wish she could. I'm sure she wishes she could!

To wrap up, since I'm rambling, it's not a new rule, no (not like yesterday new), but it's been in the making for quite a while. There are many other TPs and events and changes to come in order to make and keep Meadows the best it can be. I hope I haven't stepped on anyone's toes, least of all our wonderful Headwiz, but I thought I would address your concerns, Silver, to the best of my knowledge.

[sidian]

Thank you for responding, Nic. As I said, I have been gone a fairly long time, for one reason or another. What i do keep hearing is "this has been being discussed", but I'm getting the impression that it's just being discussed amongst the wizzes and not provided to the player base in general for their opinions.
As to the wolf population, there are 78 wolves currently in existence on the muck, and I KNOW they aren't all in a pack. If we're so concerned with limiting the wolf population, we should stop allowing random new wolf characters who aren't affiliated with any pack, rather than stopping the alphas from having legitimate pups. My thoughts on that matter, anyway.
I do realize we have a sped up timeline, but that got screwed up by picking up the doubled time thing in the middle of the year. I won't go into that again, however, as that was already beat to death.
I'm not trying to criticize, I know it's hard work keeping a muck running, but forcing an alpha to step down OOCly rubs me wrong, be it me or the Lazuli alphas, because what if there's no one ICly ready to take over? I think things should be allowed to take a more natural course. If someone, ICly, wants to challenge for alpha, that's cool, even if it has a predetermined outcome.
Also, the 'Two years as alpha" rule...Silver hasn't been an alpha for two OOC years. She showed up and formed Viridian considerably after the founding of the muck and of Lazuli, because I was gone for a while. So I'm wondering about that.

[Althaea]

I know your all talking about why, and how.. but what of activeness. Isn't being active a benefical part of being a leader..? I know RL is more important than anything, but shouldn't it be fair to say that if RL is taking away to much of your Online muck time that the title of leader is/possible/should be passed onto someone that's more active or who has the time.
I'm not trying to sound like people with busy lives can't play a leader role, cause they can, I've seen it done.. I just think leadership should be placed upon a more active player role. Not taking the position away from the person without warning or reason or course...
If you find yourself unable to be as active as you hoped you were, it would be nice to know, too.

[Just though I'd bring this up.]

[temperance]

I think Halidari pretty much hit the nail on the head. Group leaders who are gone for extended periods of time can't effectively lead a group ICly or OOCly -- I'd know, since my track record here isn't the best either. I've been gone for long stretches before, and if I'd been in charge of an important, pivotal character then that wouldn't have been fair to everyone who was playing with me (and I was, sorta).

Being a group leader is about more than just getting out there and RPing your character -- there's a certain amount of OOC leadership required as well. I don't know if Curiosity shares my views, but I believe that group leaders should actively be out there talking with other people who control characters in positions of power, and finding interesting and dynamic ways for their groups to interact -- for better or for worse. Otherwise, things grow stagnant... which is why the 2 year rule was proposed.

2 years is a long time, especially in a game where the time ratio isn't 1:1. There's no reason that a person should be clinging to a leadership position for longer than that unless there's good IC and OOC reason for it. I'm not seeing any of that with the game as it is right now. The wolf alphas right are great characters, no doubt about that, and they've been played well -- when they were played. It's just time to give somebody else a turn, otherwise it's not really fair to the other players who might have ideas to get more activity happening on the grid.

Additionally, I agree that we have way too many wolves and that we should maybe discourage people from @requesting unaffiliated characters unless they have a vague idea of where they want to take them.

[sidian]

Yes, as I said, I have been gone a long time, which is entirely unacceptable for a leader, and which is why when I came back I started trying to think of a way for Silver to move aside for Cottonpaws...Because if I'm going to randomly lose interest in RP for periods of time, it isn't fair to others to leave the group without a leader. Silvan mentioned as much in his reply.
As I've also said, it's not the "stepping down" that is my concern. My concern is the OOCly being FORCED to do so for no good IC reason. Additionally, while it may have been 2 years for Storm/Lazuli, who have been around almost since the muck began, it has NOT been 2 years for Viridian.
I'm not clinging to leadership. I would happily have Silver step aside due to RP circumstances. It's the OOCly saying "Woops! Time's up, gotta go!" that I don't understand. If there's someone ICly WANTING to take over, that's fine, but what if the time limit is reached and there isn't anyone? What then?
I'm pretty sure that we've got it worked out amongst ourselves how things are going to go, but that wasn't the point of this post.
As to the number of wolves on the muck, Hali pointed out to me that there's an idle purge incoming, so that number might drop, but yeah...honestly there's way too many 'lone wolves' out there, in my opinion.

[temperance]

Well, whenever there's a change of leadership coming up, we have to ask ourselves the following questions:

1. Have the current leaders been actively participating in RP and TPs?
2. Have the current leaders been actively contributing to the game's community as a whole by frequently posting logs and coming up with exciting things for their group to do?
3. Is the majority of the MUCK happy with the situation as it stands?

If the answer to all those questions is 'yes', then I can see staff potentially making an exception to the rule -- especially if there's nobody else available to take over. That isn't the case right now, though. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that it's almost never the case, no matter what the game.

I know I'm not currently meeting the criteria with Ayashe, so I think we may be switching things up with the cougars too.

[sidian]

I think that's pretty hard for everyone to do. We're pretty isolated on the mountain, so it's hard to get interaction going with other groups. I tried it with the Amaranth, I even tried getting some interaction going with the Lazuli once upon a time.
I haven't posted many logs because usually when we have a cool RP going that is log-post-worthy, someone has to leave in the middle and it never gets picked back up. My client is also a bitch about logging.
I know Cotton is willing and wanting to take over for Silver, but I'm pretty sure Cotton's mate Friti isn't really eager to take over for Silvan. PLUS Friti's player is going to be shipped out for up to 6 months, which means yet another inactive alpha. I dunno, that sorta stuff we'll just have to work out amongst ourselves I suppose.

[Curiosity]

All right. I'm going to answer this as best I can. It's probably gonna be long (...yep, it is), but here it is anyway.

1) Re: Not ruling more than 2 OOC years.
Okay, let's do the math here, which will also give things the "IC foundation" you're seeking. It takes 1 OOC year (2 IC years) to become an adult. If Ace the Wolf were to /immediately/ become alpha upon reaching adulthood, and rule for 2 OOC years (= 4 IC years), he'd be 6-7 years old after that time. Wikipedia says that the typical lifespan of wolves in the wild is 8-10 years. Thus, by that logic, a 6-year-old alpha would be approaching the end of his lifespan (and that's assuming /immediate/ alpha-ship at 2 years old; 3+ is usually more likely). Yes, how long your character lives is up to you. But even with the more liberal estimate of 10 years, that's 5 RL years, and if you subtract the year for maturity and the two years of being alpha, that leaves a 'buffer' year before the last year of old age/eldership, which is likely not the best condition to be in to be ruling a pack, considering that Wikipedia also says that older alphas often just give up their position without fighting when a challenger presents itself.

From a MUCK standpoint, why two years? Because in the age of dying MUCKs, two years is often a longer lifespan than most new MU*s nowadays even reach. Meadows has had the fortune of being around for 2 years now, but that also means that the current alphas have essentially held a monopoly on being alpha wolves, or even being leaders in the longest-surviving groups on Meadows so far. Even Amaranth has switched over leaders once already (and will be tweaking the status quo a bit soon, so once and a half), and they've only been around for a little over a year.

I also told both packs last winter while the pups were starting to be born that they would need to choose an heir from this litter (or else another character) to take over as alpha once they reached adulthood the following year. This may not have exactly translated as meaning "when the pup is chosen, that means the alphas will need to change over", but it's what I meant.

1a) Why is there a specific date set?
There isn't. Just like there isn't a specific date set for when you have to age up your characters. When 12:01AM November 24th rolls around, I'm not going to swing a magical MUCK hammer and say "okay, sorry if you haven't finished the TP to get Silver and Silvan out of alphaship, but you're done now". IC /always/ trumps OOC in my book. November is just a general idea to keep in mind (because that's when the pups will become adults, and they're presumably the litter that will contain an heir, if that route is chosen) -- if you start running over into the new year and it's obvious that it's been a result of OOC procrastination rather than prolonged IC events, then I'd be concerned.

1b) What if there's not someone willing to take over?
I'm pretty sure there's always at least one person willing to take over, considering a few months back I had at least three different people ask me about potentially starting up a new wolf pack. I don't want to end up with half a dozen wolf packs running around, but at the time, I couldn't say "just go and try to force out one of the current alphas", because, ask yourself honestly -- even though you say it's better to have a play made for it ICly, would you have really stepped down if a challenger approached at that time? I doubt it. Thus, the maximum cap -- to make sure that other people /do/ have the chance to take over through some means or another.

1c) Lazuli's been around longer!
Not from what I can tell. According to RP logs here and here, you can see that "A new pack forms", which involves Silver and Pinta, was posted May 12 2006, whereas the "Beginning of a New Pack?", which involved Smoke and Redmoon (who were some of the potential first Lazuli alphas) was posted June 27 2006. Thus, Viridian was around about a month and a half before Lazuli was -- either way, is there really a need to get that picky? You're even getting more than 2 years from that posted date...2 1/2, to be precise (2 years would have meant new alphas earlier this month). So even if Silver wasn't around at the beginning, it will still have been two years from fall 2006 when fall 2008 rolls around. It's not my fault if you haven't made the most of your alpha-ness through RP because of hiatuses caused by other games or conventions or whatever. The MUCK doesn't pause when a leader leaves - which is why we have to keep things moving.

2) Re: Pup amounts
Silver, considering that you've been the person most concerned with making sure that Lazuli and Viridian had the exact same number of pups each litter, I'm not sure why you're so upset that you can't have another pup when Lazuli isn't having another litter, either -- /especially/ considering that if Auric hadn't left, you'd have 1 more pup than Storm did, anyway.

Plus, don't you think, from a MUCK standpoint, where, if we assume 100 individual players, 9 pups from a single mother is probably more than enough? That's almost 1/10th of the playerbase playing one of your offspring. More than that would be excessive, and just spread the playerbase even thinner. Also, the preventing-wolf-explosion thing Nicodemus mentioned.

And no, we're not going to force people to join a pack as soon as they create a character. I'd be very uncomfortable joining /any/ MUCK where the staffers told me that I'd have to immediately join a group, without getting to know the tendencies or RP habits of the characters involved with that group first. Or even being forced to join a group at all.

[Tala]

Alright I'm going to voice my thoughts on this after reading everything here.

One: I don't have a problem at all with the 2 year mark. I was not planning on Storm being Alpha forever no matter what anyone says. But I do want to point out none of the pups from Storm and Fel's last litter seemed eager to play alpha, an Lark is going to start a pack with Haze which is all well and fine. So that is why I, Fel, Mia and Thorne have been working on a way to figure out who would be the next alphas of Lazuli and Mia and Thorne will be the next alphas. SO we have /not/ been sitting around doing nothing as some seem to think.

Two: I'm getting tired of getting compared in your posts Silver. IT has always been this way with are packs. If you have something else to say/bring up then do so because getting on here and seeing how you compare everything to what WE (the pack) does I feel it is childish. I have /never/ gotten on here and pointed fingers about rules and anything else when it came to your pack, and I would expect the same from you and anyone else here.

Lazuli is the first pack to ever last on this I'll agree with you there. But even when the pack started Storm was a young adult, and the only reason she lasted as Alpha is because she wanted to keep the position AND she fought to keep it. But it is right what Curiosity said, Smoke was the first alpha before the pack had a name, and when Smoke stopped coming on I took over to keep the pack going as I thought it was what the MUCK needed at the time.

As for being -so- isolated on the mountain, if you really wanted to RP with the others down in the valley I'm sure there could have been ways found. AND as for the 'attempts' to RP with Lazuli they failed horrible because of one thing or another and they was never tried again. Though something /must/ have worked seeing how both Larkspur and Haze are now going to have their own pack.

Three: Alphas/Leaders that need to be on, I'm all for this and I know I slipped a little there myself BUT I have always come back to the MUCk and I have always be open to RP with who ever it there. BUT at the same time I also believe the leadership role should /not/ be given to someone who can connect all the time. There has to be something else, a drive and a want to RP the leader, and they have to show in their RP that they can handle the leadership role. There might have been some problems along the way but I feel Felstride and myself have done this to the best of are abilities and THAT is why we have taken so long to find the /RIGHT/ persons to take over the pack. I do not want this pack to get tossed to the side because of the wrong person being picked. If that's a problem, well so sorry.

[sidian]

o.O
Um...I wasn't targeting you or 'comparing', Storm. At least that wasn't my intent. If anything I was asking for both our packs, not just Viridian. The only thing I think that could be interpreted that way was the "Lazuli was established before Viridian" thing. But I discussed that with Curiosity last night and she cleared things up for me.
I'm sorry you and I don't seem to get along, I never had anything against you, and I'm not sure where you got the impression in these posts that I was crying "They get something we don't get!"
Soo yeah, I'm not sure what you mean, but I'm sorry if things were misconstrued. :/

[Althaea]

I'm not sure if I'm miss reading the first part of what Storm said... but I feel sort of left out.

"But I do want to point out none of the pups from Storm and Fel's last litter seemed eager to play alpha, an Lark is going to start a pack with Haze which is all well and fine."

I hope you all haven't forgotten that Halidari is still around, unless you've all got other plans for her.

Also.. ok, leadership shouldn't be giving to just anyone who can connect often.. I agree there and with the fact that the player should have some kind of drive to promote RP with people in and outside the pack/group in order to give the group alive and interesting. I was only refer that the player should active. Pretty had to sustain a drive if your not around, right?

[Cael]

May 31, 2008 22:39:14 GMT -5 Althaea said:

I'm not sure if I'm miss reading the first part of what Storm said... but I feel sort of left out.

"But I do want to point out none of the pups from Storm and Fel's last litter seemed eager to play alpha, an Lark is going to start a pack with Haze which is all well and fine."

I hope you all haven't forgotten that Halidari is still around, unless you've all got other plans for her.

Also.. ok, leadership shouldn't be giving to just anyone who can connect often.. I agree there and with the fact that the player should have some kind of drive to promote RP with people in and outside the pack/group in order to give the group alive and interesting. I was only refer that the player should active. Pretty had to sustain a drive if your not around, right?

Just to clarify, Halidari, Storm was talking about the last litter, meaning those pups who are still juvenilles. She wans't referring to the first litter of you and Larkspur. And, with what she said before, we've taken so long to choose someone for the new leadership role because we are trying to find the right person and the best compromise. The reason it was never shouted outloud to much of anyone is because it was all supposed to happen suddenly to really drum up RP with the drama that was to ensue. It still should happen, and I don't want to give away all the plans that have been laid out.

The reason that I've mentioned, Silver, about "things being discussed" is because, yes, they have been discussed within the Staff. That's how it's been from the begining. The Staff will discuss the best options availible for the situation, present it to the player base and/or those it effects, then finalize what's to come. We're still in that process now. Curiosity did let Viridian and Lazuli alphas know last season when the current litters were being born that they were not going to have a third litter, and that when the current generation were to age to adult they were going to have to step down in their leadership roles. I have been working on this for months and admittedly, things have been rough on the Lazuli side because of my inactivity. I can't connect often because... well... that's what happens when you 'borrow' a WiFi. You get what you pay for. Anyway. Things in Viridian seemed to have slowed down as well since the time when the current litter was born.

To sum up, to everyone: things change. They have to. Honestly, that's what the Staff is there for. If we had a monopoly on the MUCK we'd just lay down rules left and right and we wouldn't have the great place that we have. I'm very upset that with all the effort Curiosity puts into everything that she does her, she almost always has to defend what happens from all sides. It's really not fair, everyone, and I'd hope that we'd all take a step back for a moment and realize what she's done for Meadows and how much she's worked to keep us a float for two whole years. That's almost unheard of now for new MUCKs. We are a great player base, and we are a great MUCK, and I hope we stay that way. As has been noted already on another thread there will be a two-year anniversary TP to come, and I hope everyone puts down their pitchforks in an effort to be what we were before: great people making great RP and having a great time.