Post by Pavane on Sept 16, 2011 1:13:57 GMT -5
Trickling River
Coinin - male wolf
Niyt - female wolf of Cerulean
Coinin has now had the chance to explore around a bit. He went on a little side trip around a day or so ago to familiarize himself with the land and who lives where. He found out that there are some foxes and coyotes that live not to far away and also found some deer. The deer had followed his scent here and he had attempted to bring one of them down unsucessfully. He also has had the chance now to meet with Lexus and found him to be a decent sort of wolf. Truth be told all of the wolves he has met here seem decent enough. At the moment he is resting peacefully near the river. The weather has definitely taken a cold turn and winter will most certainly be upon us soon enough.
Niyt has been busy, in this time. Running messages from here to there, gathering together those wolves that will make up the expedition to save the Ute pup. They're nearly ready to depart, and for the moment, there's nothing more she can do. So she finds herself headed toward the river. Perhaps the fish are active again today. Or perhaps she'll simply have a drink, as she approaches the water to do.
Coinin lifts his head from his paws when he hears Niyt approaching. He hasn't seen her around for a few days, but he figures that she probably has pleanty on her mind and pleanty to do besides, "Hello." he says. He does find himself wondering how she manages to get herself around as well as she does without tripping over a hole or falling over branches.
Niyt lifts her head, muzzle still wet from her drink. "Hello," she calls back. She turns, and makes her way somewhat closer. Her motions seem natural; perhaps there's a moment of testing with each pawfall, but even that hardly seems enough to help her make her way around. "You have been well, I hope?"
Coinin nods his head, "Yes. I've been very well. Hopefully you have been as well?" At least he hopes that is the case. Though he would imagine that with everything that has happened that wouldn't likely be the case. She seems to be a very determined sort of wolf. Once she sets her mind to something she gets it done.
Niyt gives a little fur-shake of a shrug. "I have been making progress. It's coming together." She smiles slightly. "It's good to see the path ready to run along."
Coinin smiles, well at least she seems to be in a better mood than she was the other evening, "I'm glad to hear it. Is there anything that I can do to help?" he asks. After all he doesn't want to involve himself in another wolfs business, but if he is going to be a guest here he might as well contribute something if he can.
Niyt considers on it for a moment, then smiles. "If we do not return, remember our names, and be wary. We will destroy this thing if we can. If we cannot... then it will continue to be a threat, and there will need to be others to stand against it."
Coinin blinks, well it seems kind of a wrong time to smile, but if it makes her happy more power to her he guesses, "Well I certainly will remember. Still I would prefer it if you all came back since I only just got to meet most of you."
Niyt laughs. Her relationship with death has always been a somewhat strange one, and this is no exception. "I, too, would prefer to return. I do not know what awaits us, though."
Coinin nods, well thats a fair enough way to think about things, "So tell me what it is exactly you all are going to be looking for." He remembers the conversation he had with her about the stolen young ones, that were being used by some strange sort of cult, but that is all he knows.
Niyt shakes her head. "I don't know. All I can hear is... the urgency of it. I don't know why. I don't know what they're planning, if they expect us, if there's some other reason why they must rush... Nor does my brother. He saw them, but they were hardly sharing their plans with him."
Coinin nods his head and shrugs, "I would imagine they wouldn't be. Still this is the reason that folks should work harder to convert the heretics." He has a certain dislike of anyone who would use spirituality in a way such as he suspects they probably have. Faith should uplift not bring down to that level.
Now there's a word Niyt hasn't often heard. It takes her a few to remember what it even means. Heretic. Such a strange concept. "I am not a missionary. Their beliefs are their own. I do not care if they believe evil things. I care only if they act upon them, and they have acted. For their actions, I will see them stopped. Not for their beliefs. If they can be stopped, short of their deaths..." She frowns. "Perhaps. But I do not think they can be."
Coinin doesn't usually make to much of a distiction between beliefs and actions in general. He has noticed that if an individual has a belief they tend to act on it. So its best to work on helping them come round to a right way of thinking about things. Granted this hasn't always made him popular, but still he feels like he must, "I would hope you would care. Evil beliefs naturally lead to evil actions. That is the general problem with things that I've noticed."
"No," says Niyt. "Not always. A belief is only one thing, one part of the whole. Among my ancestors was a wolf who believed wolves the only thinking creatures. He did not acknowledge the thoughts of others. An evil belief. It could have led him to reckless slaughter, to the murder of others without need. But it did not; instead, he hunted to feed his pack, because he also believed in thriftiness, in the saving of resources so that he and his family would not go hungry later."
Coinin is willing to accept the minor tweek to his thought, "I will grant you that perhaps not always, but I would say that more often than not they lead to problems. Which is why I think we should help those come around to see things the right way." He doesn't mean through force or violence, but a way of proposition, not imposition.
Niyt shrugs. "When does a thought become a belief? Everyone has thoughts of anger. Of hate, or of vengeance, or of cruelty. Everyone has those things in them that should not rule them. We each see those things in others that we think are wrong, but how can we say they do not see things in us that they think are far worse? Who is to be the judge?"
Coinin smiles and shrugs, "Well I suppose a thought becomes a belief when it is engrained deep enough to repetition and you holding onto it. I agree that we all are constantly working toward some self improvement, well hopefully anyway, as for the judge. I would suspect that would be God's job. I certainly wouldn't want to be the one to judge."
Niyt says, "You wish to help others to come around to see things the right way, and yet you do not wish to judge. Does this god of yours speak to you, to tell you the right way? I have not heard a voice like that upon the wind."
Coinin is still largely in the process of figuring things out, "A voice?" he asks, "Not in the way that I think you mean it. I think I would describe it more as an illumination of conscience." he says, "That would allow anyone to choose the correct path in life."
"You have a voice you listen to. Very well," Niyt says with a nod. "But perhaps you are the only one who hears it. How can you judge another by your own voice?" She smiles. "I am a wolf. My nature tells me I must hunt; that I must take prey in order to eat. To the nature of a hare, is that not evil? And yet I must, if I am to live."
Coinin chuckles, he has had these conversations before with various other members of his old pack. They came to view him as a rahter odd duck first before they thought him to be a nuisance, "Perhaps...but I don't think that you can make this argument logically. If I am correct then everyone would at least have the possibility of hearing this voice if they chose to pay attention. I don't think that is evil. I think its proof that I'm right.." he says, "If we look around what you see is a very fantastic system that all fits together perfectly to sustain life. Its not random or happenstance. I think there is a mind behind it, and since it is so orderly I've come to the conclusion that its a single mind."
Niyt shakes her head. "I accept that you hear a voice. But you are only one wolf. Why elevate your belief above all the others? Perhaps it is wrong. Perhaps it is evil. If its guidance pleases you, then follow it." She smiles a little at the mention of the world. "Perfectly? No. The hare starves in winter. The bird falls frozen from the branch. The madness makes creatures froth. The sun burns the flesh of pups, and the night makes them shiver. The sandstorms can grind the flesh from the bone. It is a world, and we make our place in it, but it is far from perfect."
Coinin smiles and chuckles once more. He likes the way that she thinks about things, "What about this notion though. Something had to set this world in motion. Nothing is set in motion without first being set in motion? Who or what set the world in motion?" he asks. "I don't claim that I have the answers to everything. I most certainly do not. But what I am saying is that once you accept the notion that there is a cause to the world it gets you thinking about what that could be, and its a pretty short leap from there to the idea of a singular Creator."
Niyt laughs, and shakes her head. "What set the wind in motion? Is there a great wolf who howls every morning to make it rise up? Or does it simply /exist/?" She smiles. "To say there is a creator solves nothing. I came from my mother's womb. She came from that of her mother. What wolf was born without a mother? What set your creator into motion? It is no answer at all. The world exists. The wind blows. Pups are born."
Coinin chuckles, "You are a difficult one." he says to her, "I would answer that with this. Everything has a cause...this much is evident...nothing is without a cause. So what is the first cause?"
"That's not an answer. That's my question to you. How can something come from nothing? Where does your first cause come from, your creator who you say made everything?" Niyt shakes her head. "Why should the world have been made at all? It is. Things go in cycles. Day cycles into night. Spring cycles into summer, into fall, into winter. A wolf is born, and grows old, and dies. Perhaps the world itself is part of some greater cycle still. There is no first cause, because it is endless. It is a loop; it causes itself."
Coinin ahhs and thinks he might have an opening here, "Exactly. With death the cycle ends...just as with birth a cycle begins. Its not so much a loop but there is a begining and an end. If we individually begin and end...then the world around us must also have a begining and an end. This seems to be the nature of things. You are exactly right. Something can never come from nothing. There always has to be something that sets the something in motion. This would be why I have come to this conclusion. There has to be something that set things in motion becuase it isn't endless. Just like this conversation began, continued, and will eventually end."
Niyt says, "It neither ends nor begins. The day does not end with dusk and start with dawn. The night is part of its same cycle. The time when we are dead, when only the wind carries us, is no less a part of the cycle than the part where we run upon the green earth. We do not begin. We do not end. We change, but that is not an ending; and if the cycle is too big for us to see, that does not mean it is not there. You have not had this conversation with me before. But you have had this conversation before, and will again. It will change, but it is a cycle."
Coinin shakes his head. He remains unconvinced, "All of this hinges on this then. Was there a time when you were not? If the answer is yes then your cycle idea breaks down."
Niyt smiles. "Indeed so. Yet how can I not have been? The young wolf knows nothing; he learns to remember. The old wolf knows everything; he learns to forget. Such is the cycle of a wolf. When the time comes, I will die. My spirit will be taken by the wind. When the time comes, the wind will give spirit to a new pup. It is not the same me, but it will be me, in some portion, and in some regard. I have been forever, but I am only me for this time through the cycle."
Coinin shakes his head and shrugs, "Can you prove this?" he says, "I can prove that events have a cause...and can trace back enough causes to the first, but I would have difficulty proving this idea of yours."
"You can prove nothing. Are you as old as my father's grandfather? Can you trace events that came before even then? No. You can guess. You can make claims. But you have no proof. If you say so, you are deluding yourself. You have _belief_, but no proof." Niyt speaks firmly - then smiles, as she continues. "I have no proof either. The spirits the wind has taken forget their former self; I cannot speak to one reborn and know who they once were. But I look upon the cycles of the world, and I listen to the wind, and to me, this seems as truth."
Coinin hmms to himself. He lifts himself to his paws and walks a bit closer to the river. On the riverbank he picks up a sizeable stone in his mouth and proceeds to drop it near the shore. He watches the water rush around it where it didn't have to do that before, "I caused that. I am the cause of moving that stone. Both I and the stone exist." he says. He then promptly realizes that she can't see that and feels rather stupid, "I don't have to be any older than I am to recognize that there is cause and effect." He then turns back to Niyt, "Wouldn't you find it sad to know that everything you are right now will be forgotten? What is the sense in that?"
Niyt perks her ears up to the sound of the splash. Then, she laughs. "So you moved a stone. What does that prove? Of course there are actions. Of course there are consequences. But can you take an action to stop the night from coming? No. There are things beyond your cause and effect. The cycles of the world care nothing for the position of a stone. There is change. Each cycle is different than the last, but they have neither beginning nor end." She smiles, and shakes her head a little. "I am sad for my mother's death. I am sad that my brother suffered. I am sad for many things; but it does not change their truth."
Coinin nods, "I don't claim to have that sort of power, but just as an alpha has greater power to command so there are beings more powerful than you or I. Perhaps they have the power to turn night into day. I don't claim to know. But still we can't escape cause and effect. I still hold to the notion that something set this world going." He shakes his head, "At any rate if you are correct and your mother is reborn why would you be sad? Isn't that the way of the cycle? If things are as you say and there is no begining or end or cause and effect and everything just sort of is, then how could you make a judgement about good or evil."
"An alpha is not different. Only stronger; only the one that a pack listens to. His powers have no different domain than those of another wolf," answers Niyt. "The spirits are different, yes. More powerful? Perhaps, perhaps not. But why look to them for an answer? The world is. That is enough." She laughs. "You have already answered your own question. My mother will be reborn, yes; but not as she once was. She will be different. She will have forgotten me, and forgotten her life here. She is gone from me. That is why I am sad." She sighs a little, at the question of good and evil. "Because the cycle does not care about the details. If I kill a hare, or if the hare dies of old age, the cycle is still satisfied. It was born; it lived; it died; it will be born. In those details is where our freedom lies, and our beliefs and choices. That is where we can do good or evil. I do not live all my lives at once. I live this one."
Coinin smiles, "Then what is the point? If the cycle is satisfied by everything then there is no good or evil. There are only events. Nothing more nothing less. Then those that you go to fight are niether wrong nor right..they simply are, and will be again. There is no real beating them then..even if you kill them they will return. There is no justice."
Niyt says, "No. If they continue, there will be more suffering. The cycle does not care; why should it? I care. A slow death from foaming madness and a quick, painless one are both part of the cycle. It matters nothing to the universe; only to those of us living here and now. That is the nature of good and evil. That is why we must act. I act to make this part of the cycle, this time and place, a better one. In so doing, I make things better for the others who are now here with me. This is good. When we kill those we fight against, the wind will take them. It will scour their evil away - and when they are reborn, they will not be their old selves. They will be ready to learn again, and perhaps that time, they will learn better."
Coinin ahhs, "But lets say for a moment that they do learn better. Lets say that next time around they become wonderful and generous and kind. They will then die again and the wind as you put it will scour away their goodness and the cycle will begin again. There was no point."
Niyt says, "Of course there was a point. They lived, did they not? Their lives touched those of others. My mother is gone now; does that make all the love she gave me worthless? Is my joy erased? No. It was. It was good. That is the point."
Coinin shakes his head, "My point is that eventually that joy will be erased because when you die you will forget it. Just as your mother has already had her joy taken from her. A system that erases joy and hapiness and gives no justice to the evil would seem to be an evil system. How can the destruction of goodness be a good?"
Niyt laughs. "Nothing is destroyed. It is. It was. It will be." She shakes her head. "You say it will be gone when I die. But it will not; I will pass that good on - to my brother, to future pups, to those I meet. The cycle continues, but my death does not mean I never lived. Nothing is taken away."
Coinin nods his head, "You have said that your memories and happiness will be erased when you die. How is that a good? I don't deny the good effect you have on others. But I'm talking about for you personally."
Niyt says, "I am not so important the world should shape itself around me. The world is not good, nor evil. The world simply is. Just like this river; it can bring us fish to eat, or it can drown us."
Coinin shakes his head, "I don't think you can have it both ways. You can't impact the lives of those around you positely and say that good goes on while at the same time say you aren't important. Its a contradiction."
Niyt laughs. "There is no contradiction. I never said I was not important to some things. To my family, I am important. To my pack, I am important. To the seasons? I am not important."
Coinin smiles, "I still say that a system that removes goodness from you and makes you forget the goodness that was shown to you in life would be an evil system. You can't remove a good without being evil."
"If you think so, you must also think that to remove an evil is good. So the system is balanced, neither good nor evil. For my brother to forget his suffering - yes, that is good. For the evil beliefs to be cleansed from a soul - yes, that is good." Niyt smiles. "If, that is, you wish to call these things evil or good. I do not."
Coinin would definitely think that to remove an evil would be classified as a good, "Then I must ask. What is good? And what is evil?"
"Good is to care for others above the self. To love. To bring about laughter and joy. Evil is to care for the self above others. To hurt. To cause sorrow and anger." The words are simple, the same ones she'd use to answer a questioning puppy, but Niyt's tone isn't at all condescending. "Some things are more evil than others. Sometimes evil is done accidentally. It is still evil; but to ask forgiveness is a good, and so is giving it. To kill a hare to eat is evil; but it is a small evil, if we do so respectfully and for our need. We are mightier than the hare; we must remember this, and do enough good to balance out our lives."
Coinin ponders this for a moment, "I agree with everything that you have said. However you have said that the cycle cares little for the suffering of others and cares only about the larger picture. Would that not fall under the definition you have given for evil. The cycle cares for itself about all others and does no good to anyone."
"Why should the wind catch up our spirits, and return them, if not for our sake? The world could continue without us; a green and verdant land, without any life in it. Yet we are here. We can have this talk." Niyt smiles. "The birth of a puppy causes joy. The death of a parent causes sorrow. These two are in balance."
Coinin hmmms, "Why should evil be equal to good? If there is an equal amount of good and evil in this world doesn't that logically show that good doesn't overcome it?"
"Why are you trying to apply the idea of good and evil to the world itself?" asks Niyt. "Are the seasons good or evil? They simply are. They do not decide, as we do; they act according to their primal natures, and those natures are in balance. We are the ones who think, and believe, and act for good or for evil."
Coinin shakes his head, "I'm not trying to apply the concept of good and evil to the unthinking and unfeeling world. What I am trying to point out is that the notion of balance is flawed at best when it comes to the idea that there has to be a balance of good and evil."
Niyt smiles. "Some things must be balanced. For every birth, there must be a death. For every summer, there must be a winter. Some things do not. A life of joy does not mean a life of sorrow elsewhere."
Coinin smiles and shakes his head, "Niyt. I don't think we are going to find agreement on this." he says to her honestly.
"You have a voice you listen to," says Niyt with a smile. As she said long ago, near the beginning of this conversation. "You have things you believe. I have no desire to convert you. You have asked me questions; I have answered them, as best I can."
Coinin smiles, "I wouldn't call it a voice, but I suppose that is sufficent." he says to her. He can certainly see that she is intelligent at any rate which is nice. Most others he has had similar conversations with grew frustrated and simply stormed off or became irritable and attempted to fight about it.
"You have things you believe," Niyt repeats. "If they satisfy you, and you are pleased by them, enjoy them." She smiles, and then adds, "It doesn't matter to the wind if you have faith in it or not."
Coinin chuckles, "Well I suppose Niyt that if I'm right then I'm right and I'll be just fine. But if I'm wrong I suppose I will never know. I suppose the reverse is true as well."
Niyt laughs, and pads closer to the river, where the wind blows more strongly. She lets it ruffle through her fur for a few moments, then turns her head back. "Does it even matter? The sun still rises, the rain still falls. You have a life. Make the most of it, no matter what you believe."
Coinin shakes his head, "Well I think it matters in the end, but I can see where coming from your point of view it probably wouldn't. But like I said if I'm wrong and you're right I'll never know. I agree with you about making the most of life."
Niyt lowers her head to the water, and takes another drink. "Belief is a tangled thing, sometimes. Easy to argue about. Less easy to understand. Actions are the clearer thing. If your belief guides you to good actions, I will call it good, though I do not share it."
Coinin didn't really view this as an argument, but rather more like a conversation, "Well I will certainly agree with you that it can be a very tangled subject. Still I think it is useful to discuss."
Niyt lifts up her head, quirked to the side. "Is it? What use does it have? It neither feeds us nor gives us shelter from the rain. Perhaps it comforts us. Perhaps it guides us to act. But perhaps it delays us, or makes us afraid or angry." She smiles. "I do not regret this discussion, but I do not see the usefulness."
Coinin - male wolf
Niyt - female wolf of Cerulean
Coinin has now had the chance to explore around a bit. He went on a little side trip around a day or so ago to familiarize himself with the land and who lives where. He found out that there are some foxes and coyotes that live not to far away and also found some deer. The deer had followed his scent here and he had attempted to bring one of them down unsucessfully. He also has had the chance now to meet with Lexus and found him to be a decent sort of wolf. Truth be told all of the wolves he has met here seem decent enough. At the moment he is resting peacefully near the river. The weather has definitely taken a cold turn and winter will most certainly be upon us soon enough.
Niyt has been busy, in this time. Running messages from here to there, gathering together those wolves that will make up the expedition to save the Ute pup. They're nearly ready to depart, and for the moment, there's nothing more she can do. So she finds herself headed toward the river. Perhaps the fish are active again today. Or perhaps she'll simply have a drink, as she approaches the water to do.
Coinin lifts his head from his paws when he hears Niyt approaching. He hasn't seen her around for a few days, but he figures that she probably has pleanty on her mind and pleanty to do besides, "Hello." he says. He does find himself wondering how she manages to get herself around as well as she does without tripping over a hole or falling over branches.
Niyt lifts her head, muzzle still wet from her drink. "Hello," she calls back. She turns, and makes her way somewhat closer. Her motions seem natural; perhaps there's a moment of testing with each pawfall, but even that hardly seems enough to help her make her way around. "You have been well, I hope?"
Coinin nods his head, "Yes. I've been very well. Hopefully you have been as well?" At least he hopes that is the case. Though he would imagine that with everything that has happened that wouldn't likely be the case. She seems to be a very determined sort of wolf. Once she sets her mind to something she gets it done.
Niyt gives a little fur-shake of a shrug. "I have been making progress. It's coming together." She smiles slightly. "It's good to see the path ready to run along."
Coinin smiles, well at least she seems to be in a better mood than she was the other evening, "I'm glad to hear it. Is there anything that I can do to help?" he asks. After all he doesn't want to involve himself in another wolfs business, but if he is going to be a guest here he might as well contribute something if he can.
Niyt considers on it for a moment, then smiles. "If we do not return, remember our names, and be wary. We will destroy this thing if we can. If we cannot... then it will continue to be a threat, and there will need to be others to stand against it."
Coinin blinks, well it seems kind of a wrong time to smile, but if it makes her happy more power to her he guesses, "Well I certainly will remember. Still I would prefer it if you all came back since I only just got to meet most of you."
Niyt laughs. Her relationship with death has always been a somewhat strange one, and this is no exception. "I, too, would prefer to return. I do not know what awaits us, though."
Coinin nods, well thats a fair enough way to think about things, "So tell me what it is exactly you all are going to be looking for." He remembers the conversation he had with her about the stolen young ones, that were being used by some strange sort of cult, but that is all he knows.
Niyt shakes her head. "I don't know. All I can hear is... the urgency of it. I don't know why. I don't know what they're planning, if they expect us, if there's some other reason why they must rush... Nor does my brother. He saw them, but they were hardly sharing their plans with him."
Coinin nods his head and shrugs, "I would imagine they wouldn't be. Still this is the reason that folks should work harder to convert the heretics." He has a certain dislike of anyone who would use spirituality in a way such as he suspects they probably have. Faith should uplift not bring down to that level.
Now there's a word Niyt hasn't often heard. It takes her a few to remember what it even means. Heretic. Such a strange concept. "I am not a missionary. Their beliefs are their own. I do not care if they believe evil things. I care only if they act upon them, and they have acted. For their actions, I will see them stopped. Not for their beliefs. If they can be stopped, short of their deaths..." She frowns. "Perhaps. But I do not think they can be."
Coinin doesn't usually make to much of a distiction between beliefs and actions in general. He has noticed that if an individual has a belief they tend to act on it. So its best to work on helping them come round to a right way of thinking about things. Granted this hasn't always made him popular, but still he feels like he must, "I would hope you would care. Evil beliefs naturally lead to evil actions. That is the general problem with things that I've noticed."
"No," says Niyt. "Not always. A belief is only one thing, one part of the whole. Among my ancestors was a wolf who believed wolves the only thinking creatures. He did not acknowledge the thoughts of others. An evil belief. It could have led him to reckless slaughter, to the murder of others without need. But it did not; instead, he hunted to feed his pack, because he also believed in thriftiness, in the saving of resources so that he and his family would not go hungry later."
Coinin is willing to accept the minor tweek to his thought, "I will grant you that perhaps not always, but I would say that more often than not they lead to problems. Which is why I think we should help those come around to see things the right way." He doesn't mean through force or violence, but a way of proposition, not imposition.
Niyt shrugs. "When does a thought become a belief? Everyone has thoughts of anger. Of hate, or of vengeance, or of cruelty. Everyone has those things in them that should not rule them. We each see those things in others that we think are wrong, but how can we say they do not see things in us that they think are far worse? Who is to be the judge?"
Coinin smiles and shrugs, "Well I suppose a thought becomes a belief when it is engrained deep enough to repetition and you holding onto it. I agree that we all are constantly working toward some self improvement, well hopefully anyway, as for the judge. I would suspect that would be God's job. I certainly wouldn't want to be the one to judge."
Niyt says, "You wish to help others to come around to see things the right way, and yet you do not wish to judge. Does this god of yours speak to you, to tell you the right way? I have not heard a voice like that upon the wind."
Coinin is still largely in the process of figuring things out, "A voice?" he asks, "Not in the way that I think you mean it. I think I would describe it more as an illumination of conscience." he says, "That would allow anyone to choose the correct path in life."
"You have a voice you listen to. Very well," Niyt says with a nod. "But perhaps you are the only one who hears it. How can you judge another by your own voice?" She smiles. "I am a wolf. My nature tells me I must hunt; that I must take prey in order to eat. To the nature of a hare, is that not evil? And yet I must, if I am to live."
Coinin chuckles, he has had these conversations before with various other members of his old pack. They came to view him as a rahter odd duck first before they thought him to be a nuisance, "Perhaps...but I don't think that you can make this argument logically. If I am correct then everyone would at least have the possibility of hearing this voice if they chose to pay attention. I don't think that is evil. I think its proof that I'm right.." he says, "If we look around what you see is a very fantastic system that all fits together perfectly to sustain life. Its not random or happenstance. I think there is a mind behind it, and since it is so orderly I've come to the conclusion that its a single mind."
Niyt shakes her head. "I accept that you hear a voice. But you are only one wolf. Why elevate your belief above all the others? Perhaps it is wrong. Perhaps it is evil. If its guidance pleases you, then follow it." She smiles a little at the mention of the world. "Perfectly? No. The hare starves in winter. The bird falls frozen from the branch. The madness makes creatures froth. The sun burns the flesh of pups, and the night makes them shiver. The sandstorms can grind the flesh from the bone. It is a world, and we make our place in it, but it is far from perfect."
Coinin smiles and chuckles once more. He likes the way that she thinks about things, "What about this notion though. Something had to set this world in motion. Nothing is set in motion without first being set in motion? Who or what set the world in motion?" he asks. "I don't claim that I have the answers to everything. I most certainly do not. But what I am saying is that once you accept the notion that there is a cause to the world it gets you thinking about what that could be, and its a pretty short leap from there to the idea of a singular Creator."
Niyt laughs, and shakes her head. "What set the wind in motion? Is there a great wolf who howls every morning to make it rise up? Or does it simply /exist/?" She smiles. "To say there is a creator solves nothing. I came from my mother's womb. She came from that of her mother. What wolf was born without a mother? What set your creator into motion? It is no answer at all. The world exists. The wind blows. Pups are born."
Coinin chuckles, "You are a difficult one." he says to her, "I would answer that with this. Everything has a cause...this much is evident...nothing is without a cause. So what is the first cause?"
"That's not an answer. That's my question to you. How can something come from nothing? Where does your first cause come from, your creator who you say made everything?" Niyt shakes her head. "Why should the world have been made at all? It is. Things go in cycles. Day cycles into night. Spring cycles into summer, into fall, into winter. A wolf is born, and grows old, and dies. Perhaps the world itself is part of some greater cycle still. There is no first cause, because it is endless. It is a loop; it causes itself."
Coinin ahhs and thinks he might have an opening here, "Exactly. With death the cycle ends...just as with birth a cycle begins. Its not so much a loop but there is a begining and an end. If we individually begin and end...then the world around us must also have a begining and an end. This seems to be the nature of things. You are exactly right. Something can never come from nothing. There always has to be something that sets the something in motion. This would be why I have come to this conclusion. There has to be something that set things in motion becuase it isn't endless. Just like this conversation began, continued, and will eventually end."
Niyt says, "It neither ends nor begins. The day does not end with dusk and start with dawn. The night is part of its same cycle. The time when we are dead, when only the wind carries us, is no less a part of the cycle than the part where we run upon the green earth. We do not begin. We do not end. We change, but that is not an ending; and if the cycle is too big for us to see, that does not mean it is not there. You have not had this conversation with me before. But you have had this conversation before, and will again. It will change, but it is a cycle."
Coinin shakes his head. He remains unconvinced, "All of this hinges on this then. Was there a time when you were not? If the answer is yes then your cycle idea breaks down."
Niyt smiles. "Indeed so. Yet how can I not have been? The young wolf knows nothing; he learns to remember. The old wolf knows everything; he learns to forget. Such is the cycle of a wolf. When the time comes, I will die. My spirit will be taken by the wind. When the time comes, the wind will give spirit to a new pup. It is not the same me, but it will be me, in some portion, and in some regard. I have been forever, but I am only me for this time through the cycle."
Coinin shakes his head and shrugs, "Can you prove this?" he says, "I can prove that events have a cause...and can trace back enough causes to the first, but I would have difficulty proving this idea of yours."
"You can prove nothing. Are you as old as my father's grandfather? Can you trace events that came before even then? No. You can guess. You can make claims. But you have no proof. If you say so, you are deluding yourself. You have _belief_, but no proof." Niyt speaks firmly - then smiles, as she continues. "I have no proof either. The spirits the wind has taken forget their former self; I cannot speak to one reborn and know who they once were. But I look upon the cycles of the world, and I listen to the wind, and to me, this seems as truth."
Coinin hmms to himself. He lifts himself to his paws and walks a bit closer to the river. On the riverbank he picks up a sizeable stone in his mouth and proceeds to drop it near the shore. He watches the water rush around it where it didn't have to do that before, "I caused that. I am the cause of moving that stone. Both I and the stone exist." he says. He then promptly realizes that she can't see that and feels rather stupid, "I don't have to be any older than I am to recognize that there is cause and effect." He then turns back to Niyt, "Wouldn't you find it sad to know that everything you are right now will be forgotten? What is the sense in that?"
Niyt perks her ears up to the sound of the splash. Then, she laughs. "So you moved a stone. What does that prove? Of course there are actions. Of course there are consequences. But can you take an action to stop the night from coming? No. There are things beyond your cause and effect. The cycles of the world care nothing for the position of a stone. There is change. Each cycle is different than the last, but they have neither beginning nor end." She smiles, and shakes her head a little. "I am sad for my mother's death. I am sad that my brother suffered. I am sad for many things; but it does not change their truth."
Coinin nods, "I don't claim to have that sort of power, but just as an alpha has greater power to command so there are beings more powerful than you or I. Perhaps they have the power to turn night into day. I don't claim to know. But still we can't escape cause and effect. I still hold to the notion that something set this world going." He shakes his head, "At any rate if you are correct and your mother is reborn why would you be sad? Isn't that the way of the cycle? If things are as you say and there is no begining or end or cause and effect and everything just sort of is, then how could you make a judgement about good or evil."
"An alpha is not different. Only stronger; only the one that a pack listens to. His powers have no different domain than those of another wolf," answers Niyt. "The spirits are different, yes. More powerful? Perhaps, perhaps not. But why look to them for an answer? The world is. That is enough." She laughs. "You have already answered your own question. My mother will be reborn, yes; but not as she once was. She will be different. She will have forgotten me, and forgotten her life here. She is gone from me. That is why I am sad." She sighs a little, at the question of good and evil. "Because the cycle does not care about the details. If I kill a hare, or if the hare dies of old age, the cycle is still satisfied. It was born; it lived; it died; it will be born. In those details is where our freedom lies, and our beliefs and choices. That is where we can do good or evil. I do not live all my lives at once. I live this one."
Coinin smiles, "Then what is the point? If the cycle is satisfied by everything then there is no good or evil. There are only events. Nothing more nothing less. Then those that you go to fight are niether wrong nor right..they simply are, and will be again. There is no real beating them then..even if you kill them they will return. There is no justice."
Niyt says, "No. If they continue, there will be more suffering. The cycle does not care; why should it? I care. A slow death from foaming madness and a quick, painless one are both part of the cycle. It matters nothing to the universe; only to those of us living here and now. That is the nature of good and evil. That is why we must act. I act to make this part of the cycle, this time and place, a better one. In so doing, I make things better for the others who are now here with me. This is good. When we kill those we fight against, the wind will take them. It will scour their evil away - and when they are reborn, they will not be their old selves. They will be ready to learn again, and perhaps that time, they will learn better."
Coinin ahhs, "But lets say for a moment that they do learn better. Lets say that next time around they become wonderful and generous and kind. They will then die again and the wind as you put it will scour away their goodness and the cycle will begin again. There was no point."
Niyt says, "Of course there was a point. They lived, did they not? Their lives touched those of others. My mother is gone now; does that make all the love she gave me worthless? Is my joy erased? No. It was. It was good. That is the point."
Coinin shakes his head, "My point is that eventually that joy will be erased because when you die you will forget it. Just as your mother has already had her joy taken from her. A system that erases joy and hapiness and gives no justice to the evil would seem to be an evil system. How can the destruction of goodness be a good?"
Niyt laughs. "Nothing is destroyed. It is. It was. It will be." She shakes her head. "You say it will be gone when I die. But it will not; I will pass that good on - to my brother, to future pups, to those I meet. The cycle continues, but my death does not mean I never lived. Nothing is taken away."
Coinin nods his head, "You have said that your memories and happiness will be erased when you die. How is that a good? I don't deny the good effect you have on others. But I'm talking about for you personally."
Niyt says, "I am not so important the world should shape itself around me. The world is not good, nor evil. The world simply is. Just like this river; it can bring us fish to eat, or it can drown us."
Coinin shakes his head, "I don't think you can have it both ways. You can't impact the lives of those around you positely and say that good goes on while at the same time say you aren't important. Its a contradiction."
Niyt laughs. "There is no contradiction. I never said I was not important to some things. To my family, I am important. To my pack, I am important. To the seasons? I am not important."
Coinin smiles, "I still say that a system that removes goodness from you and makes you forget the goodness that was shown to you in life would be an evil system. You can't remove a good without being evil."
"If you think so, you must also think that to remove an evil is good. So the system is balanced, neither good nor evil. For my brother to forget his suffering - yes, that is good. For the evil beliefs to be cleansed from a soul - yes, that is good." Niyt smiles. "If, that is, you wish to call these things evil or good. I do not."
Coinin would definitely think that to remove an evil would be classified as a good, "Then I must ask. What is good? And what is evil?"
"Good is to care for others above the self. To love. To bring about laughter and joy. Evil is to care for the self above others. To hurt. To cause sorrow and anger." The words are simple, the same ones she'd use to answer a questioning puppy, but Niyt's tone isn't at all condescending. "Some things are more evil than others. Sometimes evil is done accidentally. It is still evil; but to ask forgiveness is a good, and so is giving it. To kill a hare to eat is evil; but it is a small evil, if we do so respectfully and for our need. We are mightier than the hare; we must remember this, and do enough good to balance out our lives."
Coinin ponders this for a moment, "I agree with everything that you have said. However you have said that the cycle cares little for the suffering of others and cares only about the larger picture. Would that not fall under the definition you have given for evil. The cycle cares for itself about all others and does no good to anyone."
"Why should the wind catch up our spirits, and return them, if not for our sake? The world could continue without us; a green and verdant land, without any life in it. Yet we are here. We can have this talk." Niyt smiles. "The birth of a puppy causes joy. The death of a parent causes sorrow. These two are in balance."
Coinin hmmms, "Why should evil be equal to good? If there is an equal amount of good and evil in this world doesn't that logically show that good doesn't overcome it?"
"Why are you trying to apply the idea of good and evil to the world itself?" asks Niyt. "Are the seasons good or evil? They simply are. They do not decide, as we do; they act according to their primal natures, and those natures are in balance. We are the ones who think, and believe, and act for good or for evil."
Coinin shakes his head, "I'm not trying to apply the concept of good and evil to the unthinking and unfeeling world. What I am trying to point out is that the notion of balance is flawed at best when it comes to the idea that there has to be a balance of good and evil."
Niyt smiles. "Some things must be balanced. For every birth, there must be a death. For every summer, there must be a winter. Some things do not. A life of joy does not mean a life of sorrow elsewhere."
Coinin smiles and shakes his head, "Niyt. I don't think we are going to find agreement on this." he says to her honestly.
"You have a voice you listen to," says Niyt with a smile. As she said long ago, near the beginning of this conversation. "You have things you believe. I have no desire to convert you. You have asked me questions; I have answered them, as best I can."
Coinin smiles, "I wouldn't call it a voice, but I suppose that is sufficent." he says to her. He can certainly see that she is intelligent at any rate which is nice. Most others he has had similar conversations with grew frustrated and simply stormed off or became irritable and attempted to fight about it.
"You have things you believe," Niyt repeats. "If they satisfy you, and you are pleased by them, enjoy them." She smiles, and then adds, "It doesn't matter to the wind if you have faith in it or not."
Coinin chuckles, "Well I suppose Niyt that if I'm right then I'm right and I'll be just fine. But if I'm wrong I suppose I will never know. I suppose the reverse is true as well."
Niyt laughs, and pads closer to the river, where the wind blows more strongly. She lets it ruffle through her fur for a few moments, then turns her head back. "Does it even matter? The sun still rises, the rain still falls. You have a life. Make the most of it, no matter what you believe."
Coinin shakes his head, "Well I think it matters in the end, but I can see where coming from your point of view it probably wouldn't. But like I said if I'm wrong and you're right I'll never know. I agree with you about making the most of life."
Niyt lowers her head to the water, and takes another drink. "Belief is a tangled thing, sometimes. Easy to argue about. Less easy to understand. Actions are the clearer thing. If your belief guides you to good actions, I will call it good, though I do not share it."
Coinin didn't really view this as an argument, but rather more like a conversation, "Well I will certainly agree with you that it can be a very tangled subject. Still I think it is useful to discuss."
Niyt lifts up her head, quirked to the side. "Is it? What use does it have? It neither feeds us nor gives us shelter from the rain. Perhaps it comforts us. Perhaps it guides us to act. But perhaps it delays us, or makes us afraid or angry." She smiles. "I do not regret this discussion, but I do not see the usefulness."